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Deace Show Podcast 11-23-11

Hour 1: Are we fooling ourselves…yet again? Mike Woody previews the holiday movies your family will (and will not) want to see.

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Hour 2: It’s not always the decisions we make…but how we make them. What’s your motivation? And Vince Haley (from the Newt Gingrich for President campaign) breaks down Gingrich’s debate answer on illegal immigration.

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  • Aaron Gunsaulus

    Regarding Del Tacket’s medical doctor analogy: to the best of my knowledge, the Bible doesn’t speak directly to the issue of choosing a surgeon.  But it does speak to the issue of choosing civil leaders.

    • “Michael Mann”

      Aaron: I don’t know where you get that from. In the OT they didn’t pick their prophets, judges or kings.  The NT is totally silent on selecting civic leaders. Kings weren’t elected, and, anyway, there is no encouragement NT to be active politically. That doesn’t mean you can’t be, but electing our leaders is not a concern of the scriptures. Please show me otherwise.

      • Aaron Gunsaulus

        Exodus 18 speaks to what kind of rulers we should have over a people. Since we have a say in who our civil leaders are, we should apply the same principles.  I would also add that since Paul says that the civil magistrate is “God’s servant for your good” (Romans 13:4) we have a directive to hold our candidates and elected officials to God’s standards of what is good.  And since bringing the Kingdom of God to bear in all areas of life is a concern of the Scriptures, so is electing our leaders (since that is our context).  We don’t need the Bible to specifically name America and American government for it to apply.  Happy Thanksgiving!

        • “Mitchell Mahan”

          But Aaron, the Roman emperors were God’s servant for your good. The magistrate maintains order and administers justice and therefore is God’s servant, not because of the magistrate’s personal spiritual state.

          Now think of one other thing: we have NT descriptions of what pastors, elders, and deacons should be like. None for political leaders. And then the epistles never give anyone – in Corinth, Rome, Ephesus or anywhere – commands about changing the government or a blue print on how to do it.

          I ate too much. Hope you did, too.

          • Aaron Gunsaulus

            Do you suppose Emperor Nero was an agent for good, or that he was *supposed* to be an agent for good, given that God ordained civil government? 

            Let me put it another way, using another example.  The Scriptures teach that in a marriage, man is the head of the woman. That he is the head is always the case, regardless of his actions. But he will either be a good head or a bad head. In his office, he is called to be a good head.  Similarly, civil leaders are called to be good leaders, according to God’s standards–the one who instituted their office.

            And there’s still that Exodus 18 thing too…

          • “Michael Mann”

            Aaron, it’s pretty tough to say a narrative about how Israel was supposed to select its judges is a command about how we are to select politicians. I wouldn’t vote for someone who is now morally unstable but I wouldn’t select The Most Christian Candidate over a more qualified, less holy person. Wasn’t Jimmy Carter the most personally moral President of the last 50 years?

            No, I disagree with your reading of Romans 13. The magistrate IS God’s servant. A personally corrupt leader who deters crime and maintains order blesses churches and families. And NT saints are uniformly told to submit to their magistrates. God works one way through the church and another way through the state.

          • Aaron Gunsaulus

            A personally corrupt leader cannot be expected to deter crime, maintain order, and bless churches and families.  It sounds to me like you’re buying into (or have bought into) two kingdoms theology, which is simply not a biblical approach to… well… anything.

            Also, I have said that the Bible speaks to this issue in light of these passages, and offers directives; not that it commands in a one-to-one ratio kind of way. If you really don’t see how the passages I’ve mentioned apply to electing those who serve as our civil leaders, then we have far deeper disagreements than what we’re currently discussing.

          • “Michael Mann”

            too narrow – look above

          • Aaron Gunsaulus

            I’ve enjoyed the exchange. And I appreciate your instinct to recognize when it’s time to cut off an online debate. I share your conclusion. It’s a rare thing when two people can disagree online and yet walk away in peace.  The Lord bless you and yours.

          • “Michael Mann”

            Aaron, I describe this distinction more at  http://confessionalouthouse.wordpress.com/

            Thanks for the conversation.

    • “Michael Mann”

      (continued from below)
      Romans 13: “for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against
      what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on
      themselves…. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do
      wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They
      are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the
      wrongdoer.”

      Aaron, what is confusing about this passage? Do you see “there is NO authority except what God has established”? Do you see how the one in authority IS God’s servant? You would change “no” into “some” and “is” into “might be.”  What presuppositions do you have that make you change this into “God has established whichever moral authorities are personally upright?” Paul wrote this to the Romans, pre-Constantine. He is telling them to submit to God’s unsaved and unrighteous servants the Roman emperors.

      • Aaron Gunsaulus

        So much for walking away peacefully, huh?  ;-)

        I don’t think we’re going to persuade each other here, and frankly I think it’s getting off-topic. But let me respond in this way… 

        The Hebrew midwives–when they defied Pharaoh’s authority and lied to him in order to save the male Hebrew babies–were they sinning? According to the Bible, they were not.  In fact, they were rewarded by God for their actions. Why?  Because the legitimate authority was doing evil rather than good.  The midwives were obligated to obey God rather than men.  Peter and John would take the same posture when told to stop preaching in Jesus’ name.  Daniel was right to defy the “law” regarding prayer.  His friends were right in refusing to bow down and worship the idol. 

        Biblically, when we are commanded by men to do that which God forbids, or when we are forbidden by men to do that which God commands, we MUST disobey them–regardless of their office–and obey God instead.

        So…  I am not saying that God-ordained authority is not God-ordained authority.  But all human authorities are to be in submission to the one who gave them their authority.  They are not free to do evil.  They are required to wield their authority in submission to God.  Consider what the phrase “King of kings” means.  Consider Psalm 2.  Consider Psalm 110.  Consider Isaiah 9.

        Regarding Romans 13, if the rulers are to be agents of wrath on the WRONGdoer, who defines wrong?  Pharaoh said it’s good to kill the Hebrew babies.  He was wrong about that; and it was right to disobey him.  If the one in authority is there “for your good” then he is expected to DO good, and not evil. 

        The window through which you are gazing at the Scriptures seems to me to be quite narrow, and is not taking into consideration the whole counsel of the Scriptures.

        • “Michael Mann”

          Aaron, the midwives were righteously defying a law because obedience would have been sin. That’s the exception: when obedience to the law of God necessitates sin, God must be obeyed rather than man.

          Yes, magistrates are personally liable to God for their sins. But their personal sins do not make their office null and void.

          Checking out…..I think.

          • Aaron Gunsaulus

            We’ve gotten to the point where we agree with each other, but not necessarily on what we started talking about!  ;-)   My initial comment was that the Scriptures inform what we should expect from our leaders, and how we should vote, in a representative republic.  I was not saying that a magistrate’s sins make “their office null and void.”

  • David j Shedlock
  • hatefalseweight

    “naive”  Israeli moneymen and Mossad chief agree with Ron Paul on Iran policy—————————————————World will accept nuclear Iran: Israeli economistJerusalem: A leading
    Israeli investment firm on Thursday said the world is likely to
    grudgingly accept a nuclear Iran given the high price any military
    strike on its nuclear facilities is going to exact.

    “A sharp rise in the price of oil, the costs of war and the damage to
    global trade would be too great and deter world powers from taking any
    serious action,” Amir Kahanovich, chief economist at Clal Finance, one
    of Israel’s largest brokerage houses, said. 
    http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/world-will-accept-nuclear-iran-israeli-economist_743743.html—————————–
    Israeli Strike on Iran Would Be ‘Stupid,’ Ex-Spy Chief Says
    By ISABEL KERSHNER

    Published: May 8, 2011

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    JERUSALEM — Israel’s former intelligence chief has said that a strike on
    Iran’s nuclear installations would be “a stupid idea,” adding that
    military action might not achieve all of its goals and could lead to a
    long war. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/09/world/middleeast/09israel.html

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